Kyle A. King

NT Wright on Nightline (click here)

A Short Discussion Between One of My Best Friends Matthew Josten and Myself About the Interview

A Brief Bio: Matthew and I met at Taylor University by living together on the same floor, sharing the same major, and doing ministry together at Exit 59 Church. In the spring of 2007, Matthew and I skipped classes to attend Wheaton’s theological conference on the Church Fathers. Many of the papers that were presented there were over our heads, but we still learned alot. In the fall of 2007, we skipped classes again and drove down to Asbury Seminary to hear New Testament scholar and Bishop NT Wright speak. We both found his presentations very fascinating and inspiring. Matthew and I have had many memories and alot of awesome conversations together. We always seem to learn something from one another. Matthew is actually the one who sent me this video and wanted to know my reaction to it. What is recorded hear is an unrehearsed discussion we had on ‘IM’. I thought many of you would enjoy reading our discussion, and might want to participate yourselves.

THE DISCUSSION

me: i think NT Wright just articulates restoration of all things in his own imagnitive way
but I agree with most things that he says
josten: ya.. idk if I buy into his whole heaven view (at least how he expressed it on tv…)
josten: but I guess we will find out when we get there
me: oh, what parts did you disagree with?
nightline did edit his stuff way down and I dont think they were totally fair to him.
josten: I guess I would have to look at it some more (it is hard to get very deep in a 5 min interview) but I am not sure if I totally buy into the idea that heaven is the “inbetween state”
me: well it depends how the word heaven is used in the NT
josten: explain
me: well i need to do a word study on it.
but when I think of heaven– i think of both the intermediate state and the renewed earth of Rev. 21
i think of heaven as when we are with Christ
josten: right…
me: but I agree with NT Wright in that the thrust of the New Testament is on the renewed earth part.
the resurrection of the dead happens on earth and those people stay on earth after it happens,
but I think NT Wright is fine to contrast pop view of heaven and the restored earth version.

me: i think the restored earth will be the springboard from which a new humanity will seek to explore a renewed universe and continue discover the marvelous works of God again
and we will be in perfect community, have glorified bodies, experience true worship, and live with Jesus here on earth.
josten: I guess when you explain it that way it makes sense… just something didn’t quite click when I was listening to the interviews of NT
me: yeah, well i didnt like the way it was presented and sometimes Wright can use reactionary language.
he likes to contrast himself from the doom and gloom judgement day stuff.
I think he hurts himself when he does that,
because its part of the gospel message and the New Testament.
josten: right…
me: like in 2 Peter 3

“7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”

earlier Peter compares this judgement of fire with the flood.

the interesting thing about the flood is that it didn’t destroy the earth completely.
it destroyed most people but not the earth.
i think it will be the same with the fire.
josten: interesting point.. In never thought of that
me: the text also says ‘the earth will be laid bare’
more like its been exposed for what it really is, than blown up
i think the fire will be a renewing fire
it destroys the ungoldy and the evil world-systems, but it preserves what is good
for example Rev. 21:24

“24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

the kings and nations will bring their glory and honor into the City.
the culture of the nations that is not impure will be kept and brought into the city as if God intended people to create diverse culture all along.
this isnt really a modern interpretation either, because the ancient Jewish worldview was this.

me: the earth would be restored. The lion would lay down with the lamb. the nations would turn their weapons into gardening tools as its says in Micah, essentially world peace after the ungodly have been judged.
josten: so you are saying this is what the ancient Jews believed?
me: well not about the specifics as revealed in Revelation
josten: right
me: but concerning the resurrection of the dead and the renewed land and the coming of the new jerusalem
yes, because thats what the prophets said,
and the early church emerged from that worldview and put Jesus at the center of it.
josten: tru…
josten: I am going to make something to eat
it was good talking with you
have a good evening!
me: yeah, take care brother
think about heaven!
its so good